How to Hit Box – Lesson One

XxJosxX

I really want one of these. Not ever losing the horizontal plane is very appealing to me.

Goatbot

I dont know if I want one but it definitely interests me. I wish I could download demo versions of physical objects so I can have a go and see if I like the feel of it before I invest in it. I think Gief players would have a tougher time mastering it but I can see some benefits.

MisterDaku

Check that first word, Keits.

OldSchool99

A shared button might be bother some, though it would make sense to have the buttons where you would grip a controller instead of pressing it on the controller. But no art work? I’d figure that’s the main reason people get arcade sticks.

JohnGrimm

Where’d you get no artwork from? In the video you can clearly see the Hit Box with artwork on it, and we make Hit Boxes with a plexiglass top so you can make your own custom artwork whenever you want.
Godly-Effect

The grungy background with “Hitbox” written behind it with the grid over the top is the artwork for this particular hitbox.
The only thing you’d need to change for custom artwork would be the extra buttons and the other buttons layout, and putting the custom artwork in would require you to move more buttons out of the way
There wouldn’t be a reason why this couldn’t have different kinds of artwork on it.

Nemesys_Syndrome

Sentence grammar ftw.
[quote]What to learn how to use the joystickless arcade stick, called the Hit Box?[/quote]

Nemesys_Syndrome

Quoting failure ftl. smh.

KinetiK

How much do these cost?

JohnGrimm

$160 for a PS3 only, $185 for a dual mod.
- Kazdyn
  
  Oh, wow. I’m glad someone asked this. Much cheaper than anticipated … Next payday perhaps …
  - JohnGrimm
    
    I should also mention that prices are subject to change. We are trying to sell them as cheap as possible while maintaining the highest quality, but if it’s not feasible to keep those prices they can fluctuate.
    - Kazdyn
      
      I expected to see these for more around $300 for dual mod, so you are still way under what I was thinking of paying for one. Can’t wait to see more videos and to get my hands on one.
      
      Keep it up
- kevler
  
  way too expensive… you can make one of this with at least 60 dlls.
  - JohnGrimm
    
    The board itself is $40 and it’s $2 a button. That alone is $70. Good luck trying to build one with quality parts for less than that.

Derp267

I think the jump button would be a lot more comfortable for me at least above the left,down,right buttons so its like wasd on a keyboard.

axi0m

Yea but what do you use for jump in WASD configuration? Space bar…. and both your thumbs. Even in side scrollers on PC I make sure space is bound to jump.
- Mercurial
  
  That’s not quite comparable.
  
  In the FPS games and Sidescrollers you’re talking about, Jumping is a 3rd axis movement, and W is the other half of 2nd axis movement.
  
  The equivalent, would be if you used Space to sidestep in a 3rd fighter. In 2d fighters, logic and muscle memory says that if S is down, W should be up, something not applicable to Crouching/Jumping in shooters, etc.
  
  It’s not a real difficulty. Muscle memory is easily retrained. I’d be surprised if the video series touched on some of the more troublesome hitbox difficulties.
  - JohnGrimm
    
    The biggest difficulties are learning that down is up. I know it seems counter-intuitive, but if you sit down with it and put in the effort to get used to it, I’d be willing to bet you’d see it our way.
    
    Probably one of the biggest comments we get about our design is the layout, and it’s always about why we didn’t use WASD. Let me tell you, we tested it. We put in a lot of hours testing every possible layout you can think of, WASD being one of the longer tests, and it just does not compare to the layout we use. For just regular jumping there’s nothing inherently wrong with WASD, but when it comes to more complex motions like tiger knees and 360′s, fact of the matter is that WASD is just not ergonomic and does not give you the ease of comfort to do such motions. This is where our layout shines, because tiger knee motions become as easy as fireballs.
    
    And as a side note, Tekken players seem to like our layout. Feel free to talk to Noodlehead on Tekken Zaibatsu about it, he’s been a firm believer since we sent him a box back in December I believe.
    - Mercurial
      
      Well, for starters, I never implied 3D fighters wouldn’t like ASDSpace, as most people call that layout; I just pointed out the fallacy in comparing it to FPS or Sidescrollers.
      
      I’ve used button input layouts in many formats, and the biggest issue with a button input format is never where the buttons are, or getting used to them. These things take small amounts of time to get used to, and I seriously doubt anyone spending $150 on a peripheral will be concerned with a little adaptation time. More serious concerns, are the problems inherent in Buttons + Greater-than-QCF-inputs.
      
      When doing a half circle, a Stick has three logical steps: Start at Left, Rotate, end at Right, and only two of them can be screwed up. Buttons have 5 steps(L, L+D, D, D+R, R), and if one of them is missing(re: ring finger comes off L, and index hits R, at the on the same frame? No down input), the move fails.
      
      It’s nothing the hitbox can fix. But it’s silly to think there aren’t cons to go with the pros of crisp button speed, or that a couple weeks of remembering where the up button is will make perfect.
    - JohnGrimm
      
      A half circle is nothing more than muscle memory and is not any harder to do on Hit Box than it is stick. You also grossly over simplified the stick input, as you can use that exact description for any motion (“A 360 on stick is only 3 steps, start at left, rotate, end at left”). A stick is doing the same thing a Hit Box is doing and can mess up the same ways. All it takes is practice. Unless you count having to practice a flaw of design, then again I say the biggest difficulty in our design is learning that down is up.
    - Mercurial
      
      A stick cannot leave out a Down input; this is the reason fighters use motions such as Half Circles, because sticks naturally flow through them. If you’re honestly saying a 360 is just as easy on a Hitbox or Keyboard as it is on Stick, than you’re trying to sell your product a little too hard, chief.
      
      There are cons to button inputs. The complexity of muscle memory required to quickly make longer motions, versus the simple muscle memory required to do the same on a stick, is one of them.
      
      There are also pros. Travel distance(Notable in the ease of DPs), being the paramount one.
      
      Execution is never black and white. Mistakes are made, and longer motions on buttons result in more mistakes. I’m a keyboard and a stick player, I /prefer/ keyboard, but I know the complications of buttons.
    - JohnGrimm
      
      I’m not saying it’s just as easy to do, on stick you can just ride the gate and there would literally be 0% chance of error. What I said was a stick can make the same mistakes. Unless you’re riding the gate, it is actually possible to skip the down input on stick. I know, I’ve done it myself as well as seen others do it. Same with 360′s. The point is that mistakes can be made on anything and regardless of what you use, you’re going to have to practice to be as good as you can on whatever you play on.
      
      Longer motions are harder to do, sure, but once you master the inputs it’s a moot point since you’ll be doing them 100% regardless.
    - Mercurial
      
      I respectfully disagree. People drop inputs. Even in tournament calibur matches. Dante Airplays come out as regular j.Ms, combo fail. Generalizations like ‘mistakes happen on both’, or planning on a 100.00% success rate after some practice, isn’t reasonable. But when push comes to shove, I seriously doubt a hitbox player is gonna be counting on TK Webthrow BnBs with Spidey, when he doesn’t want to drop a combo.
      
      I’d also expect the same player to be the first one sticking the wakeup reversal DP super with Akuma, when he’s got no other options.
      
      I’d expect pad players experience their own subtle nuances of pros and cons, but it boils down to different control schemes behaving differently.
    - JohnGrimm
      
      That post was pretty ignorant of you. A Hit Box player isn’t going to rely on Tiger Knees? That’s absolutely ridiculous. Just for your information, I myself play Spencer and our other representative Upa plays Dante. Both of us rely on Tiger Knee motions to extend combos and neither of us drop combos. I would request that you not make comments like that without having seen our players in action, because I assure you silly mistakes like that do not happen to people who have put in the time and effort to learn the Hit Box.
    - Mercurial
      
      It’s not ignorant of me at all. I’m very good on button formats. I, play dante on button formats. I still understand that trying to rush the 225-degree motion for a TK web throw(re: much more difficult for button inputs than TK Acid Rain), isn’t something I’d expect to see on a reliable, serious-play basis from a hitbox user.
      
      So, that post was /informed/, of me. I have plenty of experience with the subject. And as much as I’d rather not get into a flame war with you, I don’t have a motivation to skew the realities of button controls in this conversation, and you do.
  - Vaptor
    
    I think perhaps it’s because in WASD layout, you use your middle finger to press both W and S, and it can be difficult, but that’s just my opinion.
Razing Phoenix

I was just about to say that. Somebody should design a stick like that. Hmm I wonder…Can you play console games with your keyboard?
- Mercurial
  
  Yes, but you need 3rd party peripherals, such as things made by Max Shooter / XFPS.

TheRetroKid

if you hold both backward and forward, are you guaranteed to block a jump-in, regardless of whether it crosses up or not? i mean, you can press two opposite directions at once, which is impossible with a joystick…so would this be a direct benefit of that? if that is the case, would these be legal in a tournament?

JohnGrimm

It’s impossible. We fixed that issue with a firmware on our PCB so it is literally impossible to block both directions in the one game that allowed it.
- TheRetroKid
  
  so which direction would register when opposite directions are pressed? would they cancel eachother out? if you held both left and right buttons down, would the character move, or would they stay stationary? if they were attacked while both bottons were being held down, would the attack be blocked?
  - JohnGrimm
    
    Left and right cancel each other out and you get neutral. You would be standing still not doing anything if you hit both at the same time.
    - TheRetroKid
      
      awesome! thanks for answering my questions. are you guys going to be at EVO? i’d like to try it out.
    - JohnGrimm
      
      No plans are confirmed yet, but at the very least Hit Box players will be there and you’ll more than likely get a chance to try it out.
    - Goldio
      
      I’m glad you guys made a design to cancel that out. It will make A, make your boxes tournament legal indefinitely, and B, will get people like me who built one to buy a real hitbox because mine of course can block in both directions, and could potentially be banned at tournaments
    - TrollThisSRK
      
      “potentially be banned”? You really think they’re going to ban the standard PS3 pad on tourneys run on PS3? I doubt it.

mistahsnart

I’d be curious to play a shmup with something like this. No more complaining about travel or engage distance.

inControl

I encourage you guys to read us up on the hit box forum under tech talk, Theres a lot of Q and A’s about the details of the hit box

Hippie_Genocide

I hope these catch on, I’d really like to try one out. but 20 years of muscle memory is a hard thing to break.

Gelohk

that actually looks pretty cool.

RaHavic

Cant you block in both left and right directions at the same time with this? I dont think that can be allowed in tournaments.

RaHavic

oh nvm already answered. question fail

freija

i would rather they make the stick resemble a keyboard, with the movement keys to your right and qweasd to your left

NightPirate

make one for yourself…

infam0u5ly

good stuff dustin.

-bigdaddychris

The Blackstar

I don’t see how anyone can really argue with the sheer ingeniusness of this design. If for no other reason, the obvious small travel time and natural ease of being able to piano your fingers should show through.

I mean, just think about how quickly you can piano your fingers from pinky to thumb.

My main fear is that once I learn this, I’d never ever be able to use anything else.

BIGWORM

I used to play A3 on Kawaks a LONG time ago on KB, and was actually good at it. I may have to give one of these a shot.

Leafhopper

I don’t think I could ever getting used to using that sadly.

Goldio

I built one and went from pad straight to using a hitbox. I play MvC3 with it and it makes characters like doom much easier to play.

http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss312/Goldio00/IMG_20110524_154936.jpg

ThreeSided

This sounded awesome to me, until I imagined doing Seismo Jump Cancels….

JohnGrimm

The’re much easier than you think.

daklog

the point here is that anything you put time into learning will become second nature, whether it be a hit box, joystick, or a controller. Use what you’re accustomed to but don’t be afraid to try something new. I actually spent most of my street fighter career playing on keyboard and find WSAD tiger knees effortless, but apparently others don’t find it so easy. After playing marvel on a stick however, I can’t imagine playing it any other way.

The Blackstar

I have to slightly disagree, though I intend to keep it friendly. Although part of what you say is true about putting time into learning whatever, I think it’s more about that there are certain configurations and movements that are just much easier and more ergonomic as a whole (like rolling your fingers from pinky to thumb) or basically having each finger press a direction. I think the “jump button” is a perfect example of this concept, even though it’s placed in a traditionally strange place.

While it may seem strange to look at, the hit box just takes advantage of a lot of that.
- daklog
  
  As creatures of habit however, people who have used joysticks since they were 4 years old will hardly find anything else that will replace that same feeling. For me, they joystick just feels better in my hands.

fokkusuhaundo

how about 720s?

JohnGrimm

Check out our SSFIV combo video, at the end we demonstrate 720′s.

GalzPanic

I could see myself wishing for a bigger base and ergonomic wrist rests ala keyboards. Have u guys encountered that issue?

Mr.Nannie

IDK why the buttons are so close to each other. I wouldnt want to use my right thumb to hit the down button

mrosenberg

It isnt the down button, its the up button.. did you even watch the video?

NicholleSoft

Wait….I just saw the youtube video link…..I mean….this is soooo cool! I could actually pull off a Super or an Ultra Combo finally without being random I am sooo interested in this. Probably buy one in Sept. I hope to use one in a tournament. I have a stick but I find it very difficult to pull off Super/Ultra combos and this one has too many benefits to pass up.

Detrimantix

Hey JohnGrimm, I’m assuming you’re with the hitbox crew, please check pms, thanks.

Wedge_Antilles

Seems really cool, I have a lot of execution issues with stick and I think this would help with (particularly qcf/dp input overlaps, 2 x qcf speed, and dashing out of FADC). And while I understand the center jump button makes sense… I currently use my right thumb for the lower left button on my regular layout, so that would be a looooooot of adjustment. Maybe I should try practicing on PC with the keyboard to see if I can figure it out there first…

obscura

I thought these were banned because you could block both directions at once…? How did you fix that?

Krackatoa

These have PCB modifications, or have PCBs that don’t allow opposing directions (It will render a neutral state when opposing directions are pressed).

If you were using a 360 PCB that has that problem, it’s only in MvC3, and not the SFIV engine, which prioritizes Forward instead of Backwards when both directions are pressed.

Thancruz

teach me how to hit box, teach me teach me how to hit box

Proverb

Could you make a PS2 version of these? And if so, how much would I be looking at?

shaktazuki

I have a HRAP 3 SA, and while I want a HRAP 3 VLX Premium I know that it offers nothing really new except improved stability.

And yet I am not ever going to spend $160 to try a Hitbox out only to hate it. OTOH I would potentially spend $300 on a stick I know I’m going to like.

Koatl

Very interesting.

Though I have a lifetime of experience (except the first few years) with stick, I already know hitbox is perfect for me. I type much faster and more intuitively than I fight, and I expect it will translate very well into the hitbox.

I’m probably going to be selling a stick to get one of these.

Scrixx

Any Idea of what you are selling?
- Koatl
  
  Two Round 2 TE’s, customized with black plexi, black Sanwa buttons, and a LB-45 (extra big) black ball top. They play on PS3, PS2, PS1, Wii, GCN, SNES, NES and of course computer.

Zebster

Is this design for both right and left handed people? Do you make layouts specifically for left handed players?

mistersmash

It seems as you are implying that in order to make efficient use of the hitbox the jump button should be used with the right thumb. However, I feel that this would hinder my ability to double tap certain inputs, which in SF4 drastically helps my execution of certain links. For example, Ken’s B&B cr.lk>cr.lp>fierce shoryu. I like to double tap the input for the fierce punch to get the shoryuken out. Has anyone had experience with this, or have any input of how the hitbox performs under this particular circumstance?

inControl

#60

I dont quite understand what your trying to say, for that Bnb you dont use your thumb nor the jump button so i cant see how that would hinder or improve it. in that Bnb you would be using your right ring finger to double tap the fierce….

using the right thumb for jump just allows to improve the speed of which your doing moves that require jump. like tiger knee motions.

# 56

all i can say is enjoy carrying that heavy ass stick, using the hit box requires a slight amount of what i call “mental gymnastics” and ironically you dont even have to buy it to try it,

get on your computer, DL some fighting game, “type wild” set it up so you use asd, space bar, then you can get the feel of using a hit box.

amd trust me just because you use stick doesnt mean that all sticks are you for you, ive seen people waste money on a TE just to realize that they like the SE more. more money and greater size/weight doesnt determine the value of an object,
- mistersmash
  
  I double tap similarly to the way shown in this video.
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NvS4bwocJk
  
  This double tapping technique requires 2 fingers to perform accurately.
  Notice how his index and middle finger quickly flicker over one button on certain occasions. So the problem is that I need to move my entire hand upwards in order to perform the double tap. A two finger double tap isn’t quite the same as hitting a button twice as one finger. I feel that if my right hand is frozen in a set stance above the hitbox I would no longer be able to perform this without having to constantly readjust my right hand.
  - mistersmash
    
    Also, thank you for taking the time to respond. I’m actually interested in buying one of these as it does seem to have the potential to decrease the number of execution mistakes a person makes with enough practice.

Naruto Uzumaki

Please someone show wavedashing in tekken on one of these or lightdashing if its even possible !!!!

JRXP2010

How long is the waiting list roughly? I just put myself on it, but I need one ASAP.

ZEEKA29MAY

come one guys
your website is down
and your thread in tech forum no one answer back!

juggernaut1981

Let’s talk quality and maintenance, how does the buttons “act” is it more american and ridged like the older Marvel 2 cabinets or is it more of a Japanese style, also is it easy to replace and or interchange buttons. We can get rough with our sticks and while under 2′s not bad ‘d much rather just get the parts, than replace it if I had too.

JohnGrimm

We use all Sanwa parts because they are the most sensitive microswitches you can get, which also increases speed, and all boxes are wired with a common ground and quick disconnects for the easiest user mods we can provide. I highly doubt you’ll be replacing anything, we’ve gone to great lengths to make sure our product was the highest quality we could possibly have.

Crabcakes410

I think everyone should play on the same controller. Its not fair that a controller can give different benefits.

inControl

Really? Read that back to yourself and see if that makes sense…..

Different strokes for different folks. Pad players can best anyone. Stick players cam best anyone. Hitbox players can best anyone

At the end it’s the player not the gear that’s makes or breaks the game.

Some tool told me this getting banned because it “provides an unfair advantage”

I told him I’ll money match him 5 bucks with me using a stick. I won and I told him to go suck it. Find the moral in the story in there for yourself lol

xS A M U R A Ix

I’m really interested in getting one of these. The only thing I might want different is the option to have a layout where the directional buttons and the regular buttons are spaced out a bit more, I’m not sure I’d like having my hands so close together and I use my thumb for the regular buttons, so it feels like the jump button might just be in an awkward spot for me.

I used to play Dungeon Fighter on a pad, but then I switched to a keyboard at some point and realized my movement was way faster and just, as you guys said, the time between wanting to do something and it actuating is a lot faster with a setup like this, so from a performance stand point, I feel like these have the most potential.

Are there any things that feel harder on a hit box than a standard stick or pad?

Taito

I wouldn’t mind a control pad that used the same design. It wouldn’t be as precise (or expensive) as a ‘stick’ layout but it would retain most if not all of the advantages.

Taito

Also, is there a patent on this layout that would prevent other companies from adopting the same idea? I kind of have a wish that some might think is too silly to mention (hint: it involves the upcoming PSVita), and if it ever materializes, I’d expect it to come from a bigger company like Madcatz/PDP than a smaller upstart. Kudos to whoever thought of this layout, but I can’t say I have any emotional investment over who profits from it, as long as I get to use it.

reverze

might get one

reverze

plus this is like a keyboard

Wolf

Can we please have some in Canada’s retailers.Its so guetto

Skudd

I’m not sure I can see the directional layout being that practical in a game like The King of Fighters, where you’d seemingly lose control over the different types of jumps, but that could be just me.

Either way, I’d love to get my hands on one of these just to give it a try, see how well I warm up to it.

JRXP2010

How long is the wait time to get one of these?

Felipe Ariel

well i dont know about u, but i’ve been doing this on my keyboard long ago, playing sf4 on pc =]

onew1ng

do you guys custom make them per request? i.e. light up buttons, fitted art and the button colors to match?

BarSoap

I’m very interested in buying this machinery. It’ll make my life playing high execution rush-down characters much easier.

This makes me wonder though:

How fast can you pull off C. Viper’s Seismic Hammer Cancel in MvC3 with the Hitbox?

http://www.facebook.com/sikerTJ Abraham Jaimes

nICE jUSTING Won ….!! I’m sorry justing wong…!! XD

http://www.facebook.com/sikerTJ Abraham Jaimes

nICE jUSTING Won ….!! I’m sorry justing wong…!! XD